After a Holiday Weekend Walkers Rants are Back

I agree it is time to move on and go forward. I still dont condone what happened down there, and am pretty sure something went wrong..

nothing happened that deserves any recourse. At most, there were some racial slurs thrown, and that's not even for sure. Those kids lives were ruined because of faulty accusations, and in the case of one of them, for something that he had no involvment in. I won't quit my defense of them till Nyfong loses his liscence for good, and is sent to prison for every single ethics violation he had, including wrongful prosecution, false imprisonment, witholding evidence, and several more that escape my mind

An Ethical violation, but its nature is not a criminal offense...Ethics by definition shouldn't be considered criminal in any way, as ethics are determined by the individual and perhaps society, to some degree.

But this brings up an interesting problem. If you feel the duke guys were, for lack of a better term, screwed over, then how do you feel about guys like Pacman Jones, Michael Vick, and pretty much every major leaguer from 1980 till 2004...

Guilty until proven innocent seems fairly true...

The actions taken by Duke, are the same ones being taken by Roger Goodell...and yet we applaud Goodell...

they weren't imprisoned on false charges, and their prosecutor didn't withold their information. Pac Man isn't being attacked for one incident that he didn't do, he's being prosecuted for something that he was involved in, that happened, and was only the most recent of his incidents. Ditto Mike Vick. Baseball is a totally different story. We know it happened, and there's evidence to suggest they did, but we aren't prosecuting them. Are you saying Nyfong's actions were Justified Ju? Please say your not, cause if you are, then I have just lost all respect for you

and some of the Ethics violations by Nyfong are crimes (see wrongful prosecution, false imprisonment, witholding evidence). If he's allowed to continue to practice law after using an oppertunity to divide even further a racially divided incident, over something that the so called "victim" wasn't even sure happened, in order to win re election, the system sucks

Pacman jones is just an example...imprisonment on false charges relates to the victim not the prosecutor. I don't know all the details, and I do know Nyfong was rather...relentless in his attack and probably went against the NC state code of attorney conduct or whatever they call it...but that's not my point...

Duke University is the thing these guys lost...their "good name" etc is total B.S. They got kicked out of duke for false charges (eventually found false)...but what about the same incidents that will in evitably happen in the NFL...if you're going to punish someone for even being involved in a dangerous situation, it should run across the board... These Duke boys knew what they were getting into before they did it...it was a calculated risk...and it got them...I have little sympathy...

"Are you saying Nyfong's actions were Justified Ju? Please say your not, cause if you are, then I have just lost all respect for you"

-I don't appreciate that comment...

Those aren't ethical violations FP...

What about the guy who was sent to friggen prison despite haves a taxi cab driver, and an ATM recipt proving he was no where near the party? What about how Nyfong won his re election because of the fact a predominantly Black region that hates duke for being Rich and White voted for him because he lied to them? What about how the defense attorneys continually asked Nyfong for the evidence he was using (as is their right)? What about how those kids will be hindered for life for being in college. They edid nothing their peers didn't do, yet we don't hold it against anyone else. For some reason, everyone thinks that the Duke boys did something wrong for hiring a stripper. If that's the case, where is the consistancy? You don't think almost every male college student at one point or another as some sort of encounter with a Stripper? So because they were prosecuted for no reason other than Nyfong's political campaign, we have to say the did something wrong? Maybe I'm missing something here, but where's the logic in any of that?

pretty sure at least witholding information is

Welcome to the real world...check in is at 8am...

No, its not that I disagree with you about the specifics (mostly because I don't know them), but that wasn't my point...

The point is, if we're taking this "guilty until proven innocent" mentality, that we are already (like steroids, NFL policy, etc), then we might as well take it the whole way to college sports. The misconduct of Nyfong, legally, will be handled because these guys are rich and white and they can afford to do it (and consequently, they suggested that had they not been rich, they wouldn't have been able to defend themselves...but would they have been prosecuted with such vigor?)...But this happens in sports all the time and we don't see the evidence one way or another...now we see it and no one sees the real crime here...reputation or not, these guys lost their free college education...that is the greatest crime IMO...

FP, to clarify, we're not really debating the actions of Nyfong...his correctness (or lack there of) is irrelevant in the matter...mostly because there's not a damn thing you can do about it now...but if you're going to apply an opinion somewhere, why not make it universal?

Ethics - Possibly, but I think you're confusing ethics w/ US/NC law...that is to say, legally, I can do business in the Darfur region, but ethically, should I? Its fuzzy... U.S. Law may be based on some ethics, but generally it's designed to be black and white (yeah right...)...I'm not doing it justice here, but perhaps when i have time, I can explain it...

Yeah, I forgot my whole point really... What part of their lives was ruin that wasn't because of duke U?

but the guilty till proven innocent thing with steroids has reasoning and factual information to back it up. This was a witch hunt against a bunch of kids who did nothing out of the ordinary, and one who did nothing at all

What racial slurs? I didn't hear about this...

Right on, BigPP. Of course, I was ripped to shreds last time I said something to that effect...

Thanks D-Dubs...I assume the racial comments were the ones you mentioned w/ respect to the e-mail and conversations about rape, etc...

Yeah, I can't condone that in any way...of course, that doesn't make anything that the strippers said (racially) any better...

Here's a question...is a false accusation or similar merit treated int he same way? What is the result of the accuser? If I accused person X, a baseball player at LSU of doing Y, what happens...does LSU boot him? How far does it go?

I admit, it's a conundrum for the university -- it's kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type of situation. If Duke does nothing, there's massive public outcry and a PR nightmare, never mind the fact that it turned out the guys were innocent. Taking the action they did, the public was on their side at first, but quickly turned on them when the truth came out. It all comes back to Nifong; had he never trumped up the charges and falsified evidence, Duke would never have had to make such a delicate choice. And the fact that you had racial and gender and rich-vs-poor tensions rolled up in one incident only made it tougher.

DW, youre correct Duke did what it had to do. My mother is a has been a Dean at a major ACC school and VP at three other schools, and Ive watched her have to navigate her way through sketchy PR waters. Its a difficult and dangerous tango. I cannot even imagine the one that was there at Duke. Whatever they did they were going to take a PR hit, but it is better for them to be overly catious and throw those boys out and suspend the team, and then try to make it up later than to simply ignore the situation and have it blow up in their face. I would bet that the number of appicante to Duke did not drop over the past year. The Lacrosse team made more money and headlines in the last season returning from suspension they they ever would have. So it was a hard thing to do, but the right thing.

I agree. To come out with no egg on your face at all, you'd essentially have to predict a theoretical verdict years ahead of time, which would be all but impossible. In this case it was better to be safe than sorry, especially when you've got a scenario where pracically every female and minority student on campus would see inaction on the university's part as outright betrayal.

What about the majority that now fears a duke persecution for the smallest or non-existant mis-step...I agree its a slippery slope...

Nifong's misteps may be grossly incorrect, but one was understand that political motivation, while basing itself in self-preservation is, in essence, forcing through what the constituents want...

Difficult indeed...

I'm not talking about the E-Mails. Those werre quotes from American Phycho. The other stripper said she thought they might have issued a few racial slurs. And I'll bring it up yet again. How is it fair, especially to the kid who had evidence that he wasn't involved to be kicked out of duke, his lacrosse career ended, and to be imprisoned for someone's political gain? That kid should demand an apology from the university, from Nyfong, and from everyone who agreed with his arrest

Like an apology really matters... What's the timeline for when the kids got the boot from duke and when Nyfong withheld/didn't listen to evidence...

No problem Ju, wasn't sure. I just guessed 68 because that's the more well known game. And 68 was a great game.

above comment is in the wrong place.

Read this. It gives you a lot of info about what Nyfong did.

Beyond that, why no outcry about the 88 professors that said the entire team should be kicked out of the school, and should be punnished right away without evidence. Where;s the outcry about that? The kids did nothing out of the ordinary, yet they are regarded as criminals. I guess I just don't get it.

SB 3 is a good game (just good IMO), but if you can ever catch the 58' game on ESPN classic, definitely worth a watch...its old time, but, like i said, its considered a classic by all means...

I might. 68 was a legendary game because the Jets won. If they lost, it would be nothing special. But because Namath made the promise, and the AFL won, it's a classic

In what?

Rugby.

(Insert International joke here)...something something, scotland isn't even a country...something something... You know, at least rugby is a sport I can respect...

England is also defending Cup champion (still hurts to say that) and they walk around way to proud of Wilkensons lucky boot. The USA is not even a top 15 nation and it has to start somewhere. Id have to say not bad for a team of all amateurs that took on 10 Scotland starters.

Rugby is possibly the greatest sport in the world FYI JT

Clearly you've never been to an american football game...there's a reason the giants colts championship game is referred to as..."The greatest game ever played"

Not that i wouldn't give rugby its due...but there's something about american football that gives us the raw power we crave and yet those moments of awe (like "the catch") that everyone can all say...yeah...i saw it...and it was amazing...

Ju, I think you mean Jets-Colts in 69, no?

JT I am a season ticket holder to UVA, and love american gridiron, and its the only possible sport that can compete and pass rugby. Its a tough choice for me. Till you step on the field and play game you cannt grasp how great a sport it is.

No sorry FP, I mean the championship game in '58 between the Giants and Colts... The Jets game wasn't all that great, it just had Joe "Can I kiss you Suzy" Namath and his guarantee...

No offense BP, but UVA football isn't exactly the tops (good conference though)...but I see your point...although, I have played football, so you might say I'm a little biased... But you could say the same thing about baseball, who many people say is boring to me, but I'll play no matter what (because its hard to get 10-20 guys together), go to any game (been to numerous Os games...and they're awful) and watch just about any game (hell, I watch the phils practically 5 nights a week)

Granted UVA football is not big time, but it is ACC. I have traveled to see games in Notre Dame, FSU, Clemson, and Va Tech, not to mention that I lived next door to Oklahoma's stadium while growing up so I know big time football, and I also played big time football. Nothing wrong with being biased, typical American reaction the same one I had till I played rugby. But its a lot nicer when you can run with the ball and score as well as lay someone out with a hit.

At least there's less flopping in rugby...

Actually, you'll find Americans don't really have a problem with Rugby because it is a tough sport...and by tough i mean TOUGH...

With that said, if there ever will be a sport that will bring an equilibrium to national competition, I think it will be rugby (basketball being the other major possibility)...Rugby provides that tough medium americans crave...and is well respected among the europeans and australians alike...basketball is similar, but perhaps the 3rd best sport in america....Rugby is essentially the best sport in america (meaning closest to football) and the world that both will agree/like...basketball already has acceptence issues in the US

RE: Big Pup

England is also defending Cup champion (still hurts to say that) and they walk around way to proud of Wilkensons lucky boot. The USA is not even a top 15 nation and it has to start somewhere. Id have to say not bad for a team of all amateurs that took on 10 Scotland starters.

I'd have to agree with you on that one, if you what I mean, me being Australian and all...

Sorry Pnatt, dont like the Aussie's all that much either, although I do respect what they do on the Field. After teh USA, Ireland would be my favorite team, and of course the Kiwi's just because of the tradition.

I must say that personally I like football (American football) over rugby, especially rugby union (the version played in most countries, rugby league being the less popular but more exciting variant). NO, this isn't exactly retaliation for what BigPPup said about not liking the Aussie's in rugby but I've always found rugby to be very complicated and most of it simply doesn't make sense. At least in gridiron and rugby LEAGUE football, the main purpose of the game is the gain as much field position as possible to score trys/touchdowns. Whereas rugby union is more possession orientated over field position and most scoring is done by drop goals or penalty goals rather than tries.

Btw, rugby league has way more similarities to American football than rugby union does. The type of rugby that BigPPup refers to is rugby union. Too bad rugby league isn't anywhere near as popular as union.

I personally think that rugby league would have more of a following in the United States than rugby union (the version that America is mostly exposed to) due to having more similarities to American football.

You are right PNatt I enjoy playing League in the summer because it is very similar to Gridiron with the 5 downs, shoulder barges, and most just straight crashes rather than the 10 plus phase ball that you have in Union. However I enjoy Union more because it requires more skills in a wider varity of areas

Actually it's 6 downs (tackles). Just like football's 4 downs. But yeah people often think it's 5 my mistake. I like league and all I just don't understand why they punt the ball before 6th tackle (down) so often? Can someone explain?

Btw Australians are very arrogant when it comes to sports. If any neutral doesn't support us in any international competition, all hell freezes over!

Not for Lebron...