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AP on Renteria

12
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by user Xinoph

Read the full article I'm discussing at Netscape Sports


Now this morning's Sunday sports section carried an AP article on the Atlanta Braves' Edgar Renteria that was quite interesting, in that nearly as much of Paul Newberry's time was spent bashing Boston and its fans as praising the resurging Renteria.
Now, I have no problem praising Renteria. I liked the guy last year, and I actually had hoped that Boston would keep him around another year. I think he would have rebounded - but I understand the decision not to. Especially given that with our new infield we have one of the best defensive teams around these days, I could understand Boston shopping Renteria. I wish we'd gotten more for him, but that's a whole other column for another day.
But, it was hardly the fault of the Fenway faithful that he failed, and that's what this AP column implies. The column begins its third paragraph by saying that he had "one mediocre season with the Red Sox." Let's be honest, folks. It was a terrible season. Probably the worst performance I've seen at shortstop in Boston, and we've had a revolving door at that position since Nomar left.
Then, later in that paragraph, the crazy clincher: "And, more important, a chance to fit right in with the laid-back Atlanta Braves." Now, I understand that Boston is an intense baseball atmosphere, but that sentence implies that the team was stressful as well, while the Braves are a bunch of happy-go-lucky good ol' boys. Can any team be more relaxed and laid-back than the Gang of Idiots? Having Manny, J.D., and Millar in the clubhouse doesn't exactly make for an intense, stressful atmosphere. What, pray tell, is Mr. Newberry getting at here?
Well, we come to learn later he really means the city of Atlanta vs. the city of Boston, not the teams themselves. Boston's intense because fans, you know, really care about the team. When you have the second-highest payroll in MLB, expectations are high, as they should be. I can understand why baseball's more laid-back in a city where the team always wins the division title, then almost always loses in the first or second round of the playoffs. What, you mean there's no intensity there? I'm shocked.
Then later on, quotes from Marcus Giles, who of course has never played in Boston and therefore has no idea what he's talking about:
Marcus Giles, the Braves' second baseman, said he can see why Renteria struggled to fit in with the high-profile Red Sox. "Edgar is not big on fame. He doesn't worry about the glory," Giles said. "He just wants to win the ballgame. He's an old school, blue-collar player. He likes to get dirty. He likes to sweat a bit. He likes to bleed a bit. Anything he can do to help his team win."
Of course, in that quote Giles implies that players like that are uncommon in Boston, or tend not to succeed when they do show up. Excuse me? Anybody remember Nomar? He was about as low-key and blue-collar as you get. Bill Mueller? Trot Nixon? Derek Lowe? Jason Varitek? Kevin Youkilis? None of these guys are glory hounds, and they do - and did - succeed in Boston. Sure, we've had our Manny Ramirez, our Johnny Damon, our Pedro Martinez - but they're not the majority by any stretch of the imagination. You want a team where hard-working, low-key players like Renteria are the minority? Head south to the Bronx. No wonder Johnny was so happy to go to New York.
More anti-Boston fluff from Newberry:
His final numbers - .276, 8HR, 70RBI - would be acceptable for most shortstops, but they weren't good enough for the hard-to-please fans of Boston, especially when the Red Sox failed to make it back to the World Series.
First of all, anyone with half a brain knows that his mediocre offense wasn't the reason the Sox were so eager to dump him. We've had players with worse offense we kept and who were fan favorites, lord knows. The problem with Renteria was the league-leading thirty errors. Now, if not wanting your shortstop to make thirty errors means you're a hard-to-please fan, then I guess I'm hard to please. I think if Renteria had done well on defense, with those offensive numbers, he'd still be in Boston. His offense wasn't why he was booed at home.
Second, those numbers might have been acceptable if Renteria were Hanley Ramirez, getting paid $400k a year, just barely up from Portland. But when you're a $10 million a year free agent, eight home runs on the season just doesn't cut it. If I see my team pay a guy $10 mill, I expect a little better than .276, thank you very much.
Then the article goes on to discuss how Renteria liked his teammates, but it was all the attention he didn't like. "If you do good, everybody likes you," he said. "If you do bad, everybody hates you." Renteria wasn't used to getting booed at home. He wasn't prepared to have every at-bat analyzed, every error scrutinized."It's not for me," he conceded.
Well gee, Edgar, you know what, you were a free agent. You could've signed with the Kansas City Royals or the Tampa Bay Devil Rays and been beloved for every RBI. But you wanted the money, you wanted a ring, so you came to Boston. You also came and visited before you signed, as I recall. You knew what the environment was like. It wasn't as though Larry Luchino and Theo Epstein grabbed you off the streets of St. Louis, put a bag over your head, and untied you in Fenway Park. You knew what you were getting into. I don't have a lot of sympathy for whining and moaning about oh, poor me, the intensity, I can't deal with it.
I can understand players not appreciating the intensity in Boston. There have been a variety of players over the years who have had terrible, short stints in Boston after being highly successful elsewhere - José Offerman springs immediately to mind, but there have been others. Yankees fans will recognize this syndrome as well, I'm sure. I have no problem with that, though I tend to think that any really good athlete thrives under pressure.
No, what I have a problem with is when columnists like Newberry try to pin the blame on Boston and its fans, rather than the players. This routinely happens; what makes it more obnoxious in this case is that it's not the player doing it, just a columnist. He devotes a few lines to the real problem Renteria had in Boston - his terrible defense - and spends most of it implying that Boston fans are crazy for caring. This kind of sports columnist is what makes people dislike columnists in general. He's the ambulance-chaser of sports columnists, and he helps everyone forget the good writers.
Indeed, the only part of the column with which I agree is at the end, where he implies the Red Sox were stupid for the deal they made. That's totally on the mark. It was a terrible deal, and they should have held out for more.

Date

Sun 05/21/06, 5:16 am EST

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MetsJetsDevilsDraft Pick
874 days ago
Score 5+-
Slightly off-topic, but it looks like that Hanley Ramirez guy was good afterall.
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XinophDraft Pick
874 days ago
Score -5+-
There was no question that he was good - they just wanted Beckett. He was considered our top prospect by everyone for like 2 years before he was traded.
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Bball3345Draft Pick
874 days ago
Score 1+-
Offensively, Renteria was about the same with Boston as with St. Louis in 2004. So unless you can blame those 30 errors on the pressure of Boston, I don't see any effect from playing in Boston.
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XinophDraft Pick
874 days ago
Score -4+-
Thank you. I think this is usually a cop-out, but I'm willing to give benefit of the doubt and say that yeah, some people can't deal with playing in NY or Boston.
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ASwaffAll-American
874 days ago
Score -3+-
You might say that Renteria's season was terrible based on expectations. But, if you look at the numbers, I think it's fair to call his season mediocre. His .276 batting average isn't terrible. In fact, it's 18 points higher than the batting average Carlos Beltran had in Houston the year before he became got a $110 million contract from the Mets. He had a career-high 100 runs, and his 70 RBIs was just 2 fewer than the previous year. His 8 homeruns and .335 OBP was also right about what he's had in many of his seasons. I will admit, though, that his 30 errors really stands out as ugly. This is all just to say that I think his assessment as a mediocre season is fair. His numbers might have been disappointing, but they're not terrible.
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DarrelSoccer Kid
874 days ago
Score 1+-
Edgar hit just as well in 2005 as he did in 2004. To call it terrible is melodramatic.
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XinophDraft Pick
874 days ago
Score -5+-
You're both forgetting the THIRTY ERRORS! Again, it's his defense that made it terrible. You're right, his offensive numbers are just mediocre. But his defense made it a terrible season. As I wrote, I've never seen worse play at shortstop in Boston.
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ASwaffAll-American
874 days ago
Score -2+-
I didn't forget the thirty errors. My exact words were "his 30 errors really stands out as ugly." But there is more to a season than errors, especially when he'd had over 25 twice before in his career. I agree with Darrel - to call it terrible is melodramatic.
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XinophDraft Pick
874 days ago
Score -8+-
Really? Come tell me that when *your* team's shortstop makes thirty errors at $10 million a year. As I also wrote, if it were a kid coming up for his first season in the majors, I wouldn't call thirty errors terrible. As it was, he was a veteran getting paid big bucks on a free agent contract to, you know, not suck. The expectations are different, and the line between "terrible" and "mediocre" is different. In Renteria's circumstances, thirty was terrible, and his offensive performance, while not terrible, was mediocre, bordering on the terrible.
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DarrelSoccer Kid
874 days ago
Score 0+-
He's had error years of 24, 26, and 27 before. Miguel Tejada had 22 errors last year - is that horrible? You have no concept of what "mediocore" is - Renteria was an average to slightly below average shortstop last year, and that's probably what should've been expected. I don't know why everyone expected him to be 2003 Renteria when all the evidence points to him being a lot closer to 2004 Renteria. You're blowing things way out of proportion.
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XinophDraft Pick
873 days ago
Score -7+-
Yes, but he didn't have 24, 26, or 27 errors. He had THIRTY. That's terrible. You're right, becuase I disagree with you I must have no idea what I'm talking about. That's a great way to argue. What are you, twelve?
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XinophDraft Pick
873 days ago
Score -5+-
He had the most errors in all of baseball. If that's not terrible defense, what is? And if he had terrible defense, he was terrible. Mediocre offense doesn't make up for it. How is being the worst at what you do not terrible? Give me a break. Are you all high?
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XinophDraft Pick
873 days ago
Score -7+-
There are games that Boston lost last year because of Renteria's terrible defense. Last year, if they'd won one more game, they'd have won the division, and not faced the White Sox in the first round. Things would have been vastly different.
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ASwaffAll-American
873 days ago
Score -2+-
Yeah, he had a career high in errors. He also had a career high in runs scored. He was right about where he's been in his career in homeruns, RBIs and batting average. When you consider ALL things, not just his defense, he had a mediocre year. You say I ignored his defense, when I didn't. But the thing is - that's ALL you want to talk about, because...I don't know, maybe you want to blame their loss in the playoffs on him. What gives?
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XinophDraft Pick
873 days ago
Score -7+-
Other points to discount that "Oh, but he had 27 errors before" comment: That little stretch was from 1999 - 2001, a solid four years before he joined Boston. Since then, he'd had 19, 16, and 11. In other words, his error total almost tripled from the year before, and it was time in six years that his error total had increased. This was also the worst fielding percentage of his career - .954. You know who the next-worst shortstop was in fielding? Detroit's Tony Giarratano, at .949. Next-best? Yankees backup and journeyman Rey Sanchez. So he was as good as those guys, defensively. There's a huge difference between 22, or 25, errors and 30. Much more than the mere numbers.
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XinophDraft Pick
873 days ago
Score -6+-
Don't be silly; their loss in the playoffs was because the ChiSox were damn good last year, and the team was underprepared. But his offense was one of the worst on the team. He had an OBP of .335, the worst of any starter, and year-by-year he had the second worst average of his career, the third worst OBP, and the second highest number of strikeouts. His offense was mediocre, and his defense was terrible. By my numbers, that makes for a terrible year. If you have lower standards, good for you.
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ASwaffAll-American
873 days ago
Score -1+-
I don't have lower standards, I just wonder why you're riding Renteria for something that was obvously a team effort. It wasn't Renteria's errors alone that got them the Wild Card, and it wasn't Renteria on the mound getting knocked around like a rag doll by the White Sox hitters. It wasn't the year for the Red Sox last year, so get over it. You didn't agree with the article, fine. Stop whining. It was last season.
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DarrelSoccer Kid
873 days ago
Score 2+-
A couple of questions. 1 - Apparently the line between terrible and mediocre is someone between 27 and 30, correct? 2 - Do you honestly errors and fielding percentage are the best way to judge defense? 3 - Why does a player's salary factor into the judgment of his performance?
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XinophDraft Pick
873 days ago
Score -6+-
I'm not "riding Renteria". DId you read what I wrote? Let me rwrite it: "their loss in the playoffs was because the ChiSox were damn good last year, and the team was underprepared." There were games that they lost because of Renteria's mistakes; even one backs my point. I watched every Sox game last summer, so I actually do know what I'm talking about. What, because I disagree with you I'm whining? So nobody here should write opinions on things that happened in the past? By decree of ASwaff, any opinion on past events is whining, poeple. Listen up. I was defending the argument I wrote in the article, not whining. You do know the difference, right? I was introducing facts, making my case, and having a logical argument. If that's whining, then you were whining, too.
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XinophDraft Pick
873 days ago
Score -7+-
I think errors and fielding percentage, when used as a method of comparison, are excellent statistical tools to judge defensive ability, yes. They don't paint the whole picture by any means, but defense is hard to quantify, and they're some of the best tools we have. I wasn't drawing an absolute line; don't be silly. To be honest, whether he had 27 or 40 errors in the past is irrelevant. I think that, when you look at the statistical evidence, and when you watch damn near every game in which he played, as I did, you can paint a pretty complete picture. If you're paying a player a lot of money, don't you expect him to be, I don't know, good? Notice I said not just his salary, but also his years of experience in the majors. Yes, I think the scale of performance is different for a highly paid veteran than for a lower paid newcomer. Do you expect more out of Alex Rodriguez than Rey Sanchez? Obviously. So, a terrible season for A-Rod might be a great one for Sanchez. If the Red Sox had had a solid defense at short, as we do this year, that would have been one less concern for a team that was dealing with major injuries all season, amongst other issues. While it certainly wouldn't have guaranteed them a World Series ring, it would have made things easier for everybody involved.
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XinophDraft Pick
873 days ago
Score -5+-
And one final point before I give up on this debate, because clearly it's a silly one (whether it was terrible or mediocre? c'mon people, either way it wasn't worth ten mill) that doesn't have much to do with the main point of my article. I understand that those of you who don't give a damn about Boston might have just considered it mediocre, not having witnessed it every day and therefore judging it only by using statistics, an incomplete tool. The standard depends which team you care about, certainly. A Yankees fan would have thought his performance bloody brilliant, no doubt. So, because somebody my team paid $10 mill for performed far below expectations in every category, I consider it terrible. You all just consider it mediocre. Fine. Does it really matter? I mean really? Do you all really care that I thought Renteria was terrible last year? Am I having a debate with his extended family, or something? Who gives a damn what word is used?
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DarrelSoccer Kid
873 days ago
Score 3+-
I didn't say you had no idea what you're talking about, I said you had no concept of mediocre. This is true. Yes, Edgar lead the league in errors. That doesn't make him terrible at anything except not making errors. Quit focusing on one aspect of Edgar and look at the overall picture. Last year, Adam Dunn lead the league in strikeouts. This doesn't make him a terrible hitter, it makes him terrible at not striking out. If you want to take about terrible players last year, there's Corey Patterson, Christian Guzman, Steve Finley, Omar Infante, David Bell, and Mike Lowell - NOT Edgar Renteria.
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XinophDraft Pick
873 days ago
Score -5+-
You're right, because my concept of terrible and mediocre are different than yours they're definitely wrong. Did you see Edgar play every day? I did. I'm making this judgement on more than stats, thank you very much. These are really quite subjective terms, not really worth arguing about. I think he was terrible. You don't. Are you dating him? His brother? No, didn't think so. So what do you care that I have higher standards than you? Are you worried about making my baseball team someday?
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PeanMajor Leaguer
873 days ago
Score 9+-
i think a cool idea would be to post a page with a topic, then have two people battle it out through comments and comparing total comment scores for the whole page
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XinophDraft Pick
873 days ago
Score -4+-
You know what would be a fantastic, wonderful, amazingly good addition to the site, Pean? Some uBB-style forums. That would draw in people who don't know what a wiki is (or who are frightened by it) and give us all a chance to have some good debates in a place other than article comments.
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ASwaffAll-American
873 days ago
Score -4+-
I agree. I think you're making the judgement on more than stats. I think you're making the judgement as a bitter, overzealous fan that needs some place to direct his rage, and Renteria is an easy target because of his errors, and because he's not there anymore. They lost games because of his errors? What about the bullpen? What about the starting pitching? What about injuries, and overpaying for Wade Miller and David Wells? How about bullpen problems? The Red Sox had a lot more problems than Renteria last year. The reason you played the ChiSox in the first round can't be chalked up to any one player.
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Bball3345Draft Pick
873 days ago
Score 3+-
According to BaseballProspectus, Renteria's fielding cost the team 26 runs when compared to an average SS, which is about 2-3 wins over the course of a season. His offense was the definition of average for a SS. Xinoph is definitely correct to have expected more than that from a $10 million investment. However, it was a stretch to expect Renteria to actually have a season worth $10 million.
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XinophDraft Pick
873 days ago
Score -4+-
Why in god's name would I be bitter the year after my team won the World Series? Seriously, what are you smoking? Yes, because I disagree with you, ASwaff, I must be bitter and overzealous. Did you ever actually read anything I wrote, or do you just reply to yourself? I never wrote that Renteria was the only reason they ever lost games, nor did I wrote that they would have won every game if he'd only had 10 errors. You take everything to bizarre extremes, then resort to personal insults when you can't back up these assertions. I call that trolling.
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ASwaffAll-American
873 days ago
Score -3+-
No, you didn't come right out and say it, but that's the way it read. When you say that his errors cost games that forced them to play the ChiSox in the first round, it reads like you're putting all of the blame on him. My point wasn't that you ONLY blame him, but that that's the way it sounds when you say things like that. And you absolutely can be bitter the season after your team wins the World Series. Because everyone likes to repeat. Or are we supposed to actually believe that the Red Sox won, and you said to yourself, "sweet, now they can go another 90 years without winning one"?
Speaking of responding to you, and not just to myself - didn't you say you were done with this argument? Have you given up on this, or what? I think what Bball said is the real point. He didn't have a $10 million season, but you shouldn't have expected a $10 million season.
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XinophDraft Pick
872 days ago
Score -4+-
That's the way it read if you didn't actually read it, perhaps
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XinophDraft Pick
872 days ago
Score -5+-
Funny, if somebody's paid $10 million, I expect a $10 million season. You pay people what they're worth.
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Bball3345Draft Pick
872 days ago
Score -6+-
Renteria has never been worth $10 million except for in 2003. Just because you pay him $10 million, doesn't mean he will all of a sudden transform into a $10 million player.
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XinophDraft Pick
867 days ago
Score -5+-
I thought I'd add that I've seen Renteria play for a long time - I saw him play for my AA Portland Sea Dogs in 1995, so I have a very good sense of what kind of player he is, thank you very much. I saw him play long before most Cardinals fans, in fact.
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This page was last modified 00:03, 17 September 2006. Content is available under the GFDL.

Categories: Opinions | MLB Opinions | Boston Red Sox Opinions | Atlanta Braves Opinions | Edgar Renteria Opinions | Sports Media Opinions | May 21, 2006 | Opinions by User Xinoph

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